I’ve spent years helping business leaders amplify their voice through podcasting, but my recent conversation with David Donnelly, a man who’s spent three decades helping businesses truly listen, reminded me why understanding your audience matters more than ever.
David is the founding Director of Instinct and Reason, a market research consultancy that’s worked with some of Australia’s biggest brands, government agencies, and multinational corporations. And if you’re wondering whether your business needs market research, his insights will make the answer crystal clear.
I have known David for many years, and we have worked together dealing with multiple different brands in very different sectors. His insights are amazing!
The Listening Gap: Why Most Businesses Get It Wrong
“I’m a career market researcher,” David told me as we settled into our conversation. “For 23 years now, we’ve operated in Australia and around the world, working with big multinationals on pricing research, brand research, and communications research.”
But here’s what struck me most about David’s approach: it’s not about collecting data. It’s about understanding what people truly need.
“When you’re talking to people, you need to focus on what they need, not what they want,” David explained. “If you’re making something that someone needs, you’re gonna be pretty close to the right thing.”
This distinction might seem subtle, but it’s the difference between building a business that survives and one that thrives.
The Trust Crisis: Why Brands Are Losing (And How to Win It Back)
We dove deep into one of the most critical issues facing businesses today: trust. And David’s framework for understanding trust completely changed how I think about brand building.
“When we conceptualise trust with brands, we talk about it in two different ways,” David explained. “People have to trust the brand to do the job. That’s the transactional part of trust. But that’s not really enough.”
He shared a perfect example: Microsoft’s recent controversy, where they automatically upgraded users to Copilot without clear opt-out options, effectively raising prices by $50 a year.
“They’ve lost what we’d call the resilient part of trust,” David said. “If I want to trust Microsoft to look after me as a customer and have my interests at heart, I now know their motivation is just to make money. They really don’t care about all of those SMEs out there.”
The Three Pillars of Resilient Trust
David broke down what creates lasting trust with customers:
- Motivation: Are you looking after the customer, or just yourself?
- Integrity: Do you do what you say you’ll do?
- Ethics: Is your decision-making guided by the greatest good for the greatest number?
“The brands that remember that and want to have that resilient trust, that allows you, in the modern world, to have a cocker,” David noted. “Things can go wrong and people will still trust you because they think your motivation is for them.”
This is the kind of insight that only comes from decades of listening to what customers really think, not what they say in public, but what they reveal when you ask the right questions.
The Language Trap: Why Words Matter More Than You Think
One of the most fascinating parts of our conversation was David’s stories about how language can make or break a campaign.
He shared the story of Tourism Australia’s controversial “So Where the Bloody Hell Are You?” campaign, a campaign he helped develop through strategic research.
“When an Australian says ‘where the bloody hell are you’ to somebody, it’s not a reprimand. It’s saying, we really want you here. Why aren’t you here?” David explained. “But when an Englishman hears it through an English tone, it’s completely different.”
The research revealed this cultural nuance, and the campaign resonated beautifully, except in Japan, where the translation became “Welcome to My Blood Soaked Hellhole.”
“We had to work on that translation and get the tone and the language right,” David laughed.
But the lesson here isn’t just about translation. It’s about understanding how your audience hears your message.
Climate Change vs. Climate Variability
David shared another powerful example from work with farmers:
“We were dispatched from a federal government agency to find out how we can help farmers mitigate the impact of climate change. Well, the first thing we found out is, don’t you dare mention the word climate change because ‘I don’t believe in it.'”
The solution? Change the language.
“We needed to change that whole communication strategy around, ‘How can we help you cope with climate variability?’ All farmers accepted. ‘Oh yeah, yeah. It’s getting more variable. What can you do for me?'”
Same issue. Different words. Completely different response.
“Language is crucial,” David emphasised. “And that’s why you need to talk to your customers. What language are they using? So you can tap into it.”
The Small Business Challenge: Can You Afford NOT to Research?
I pushed David on something I see all the time: small and medium businesses creating products and services based on gut instinct rather than research.
“It’s really hard for SMEs to find that money to throw at a market research problem,” David acknowledged. “So entrepreneurs are very reliant on their own gut instinct.”
But here’s where it gets interesting, and where podcasting comes in.
“You can still do your homework,” David insisted. “Market research is about talking to potential customers and finding out what they need. Even small and medium enterprises can spend time talking to their target audience.”
This is exactly why podcasting is such a powerful tool for businesses. When you create a podcast, you’re not just broadcasting. You’re creating a platform for conversations. You’re learning what resonates with them, what questions they ask, and what language they use.
“We’re still doing a lot of that,” David noted. “A third of our work is focus group discussions, online forums, and one-on-one interviews. We’re still talking to people to learn about what they need.”
The Hygiene Factor: What Customers Expect vs. What Delights Them
David shared a story I’ll never forget, one from our early work together with a funeral company.
“Cleanliness of funeral vehicles was always a huge impact if they were bad,” I reminded him. “You got no bonus points if they were clean. However, if they were dirty, it completely changed the way people felt about the entire service.”
“Yeah, that’s one of the important things in marketing. These are hygiene factors,” David confirmed. “They’re things that if they’re not there, you’re not gonna make a sale because they’re just meant to be there, but they’re not gonna differentiate your product in any way.”
Understanding the difference between hygiene factors and differentiators is crucial. You need to:
- Identify what customers expect as baseline (hygiene factors)
- Deliver those flawlessly
- Then focus your innovation and marketing on true differentiators
The Group Think Trap: Why You Need to Hear Individual Voices
One of the most valuable lessons I learned from watching David’s team conduct research is about the danger of group dynamics.
“Group discussions can be challenging,” David admitted. “Some people just have verbal diarrhea and the moment you say something, it comes out and then everyone is processing that.”
His solution? “We often would say, ‘Listen, we want you to write down your first impressions, but let’s write it down and then we’ll discuss it as a group.'”
This is crucial for anyone gathering feedback, whether through formal research or informal conversations. The loudest voice in the room isn’t always the most representative.
The Multi-Layered Truth: What People Say vs. What They Mean
As we wrapped up our conversation, I asked David about the “aha moment” businesses have when working with Instinct and Reason.
His answer perfectly captured why market research, and by extension, why truly listening to your audience, matters so much:
“You can ask a question in a group discussion or even an interview, and you get a response, which is true, but it’s not the whole truth,” David explained. “People are overlaying ‘I wanna sound sensible and logical and smart. So here’s why I did that.'”
“It’s digging down gently underneath that and drawing people out to tell us why they really did it. You know, it goes back to your point about ‘I wanna look thin.’ I don’t wanna look fat. It’s not that I don’t wanna lose weight. I like eating and I like the food, and that’s not the problem. The problem is I wanna look good to other people.”
“You keep drilling down and I think the companies that love working with us love getting that extra layer of insight into why.”
What This Means for Your Podcast (And Your Business)
Here’s what David’s insights taught me about the power of having a voice in your market:
1. Listening Creates Competitive Advantage. The businesses that win aren’t the ones that talk the loudest. They’re the ones who listen the deepest. A podcast gives you a platform to have those conversations, to hear the language your audience uses, to understand what they truly need.
2. Trust Is Your Most Valuable Asset. In a world where consumers are increasingly sceptical, building resilient trust through authentic communication is non-negotiable. Your podcast is your opportunity to demonstrate your motivation, integrity, and ethics week after week.
3. Language Is Everything. The words you use matter more than you think. Through consistent conversations with your audience, you learn their language, their concerns, and their aspirations. You stop guessing and start knowing.
4. Surface Answers Aren’t Enough. Just like David’s research digs beneath the surface to find the real “why,” your podcast conversations can reveal insights that surveys and data alone never will.
The Research You’re Already Doing (Without Knowing It)
If you’re running a business without a podcast, you’re missing out on the most accessible form of market research available. Every episode is an opportunity to:
- Test messaging and see what resonates
- Understand the language your audience uses
- Build trust through consistent, authentic communication
- Gather insights from guests who represent your target market
- Create a feedback loop with listeners
David’s work with Fortune 100 companies and government agencies proves that the biggest organizations in the world invest heavily in understanding their audiences. But you don’t need a six-figure research budget to start listening.
You just need to start the conversation.
Your Audience Is Waiting to Be Heard
After 30 years in market research, David’s core message is simple: “Talk to your customers. Find out what they need. Use their language. Build trust through your actions, not just your words.”
And there’s no better platform for doing exactly that than podcasting.
While your competitors are guessing, you could be listening. While they’re broadcasting messages, you could be building relationships. While they’re hoping their marketing resonates, you could be using the exact language your audience uses because you’ve heard it directly from them.
The question isn’t whether you can afford to invest in understanding your audience. The question is: can you afford not to?
Ready to Start Listening?
At Podcasts Done For You, we help business leaders create podcasts that don’t just broadcast. They build relationships, gather insights, and establish trust with the audiences that matter most.
We handle everything from strategy and production to editing and distribution, so you can focus on what you do best: having authentic conversations that reveal what your customers truly need.
Because in today’s market, the businesses that win aren’t the ones with the biggest megaphones. They’re the ones with the best ears.
Let’s talk about how podcasting can transform your business. Visit podcastsdoneforyou.com.au to start the conversation.
Your audience is out there, waiting to tell you exactly what they need. Isn’t it time you started listening?
I’m Anthony Perl, and I help business leaders amplify their voice through podcasting. If David Donnelly’s insights about the power of listening resonated with you, imagine what you could learn by having regular conversations with your ideal clients and industry leaders.
